Curse

BlackSephir · Dec 12, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

The SF haters are not a big enough group to support ANet

I like your data. It's probably from the same source where "Only vocal minority wants Ursan nerfed" came from. And look what happended!

Bryant Again · Dec 13, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

If ANet really wanted to provide a solution, they'd do something like increase the rewards based on the variation in the party (scan on entry) or time spent doing the area, so a 8 Sin team speedclearing UW in 10 minutes would get bupkiss, compared to a balanced team taking two hours.

That's so horrendously uninspired that I can't even call it a "band-aid fix".

Emz · Dec 13, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

I really do like some of the opinions posted by Kaleban. If they want to fix the games balance then more is going to be needed then denying a few classes of some of their skills. That is a huge "band-aid fix" in comparison to the idea of giving rewards based on action. Yes his example was simplistic but the system could be refined to work quite nicely.

I've only had this game what ... 3 months or so? And SF really doesn't affect me in a negative way or a positive way. In fact, the only time I have seen it is when a friend I have known a year or so off of GW ran me to Droknar's. If I choose to try and farm (and fail) as a monk or a sin I go for it. I do prefer to do storylines to campaigns though on new chars.

Surely if you don't wish to use the skill and you want to spend hours running a dungeon with friends/guildies then that is your choice? Sometimes newer players do need a quick buck and some people enjoy speed clearing over grinding.

The quality of rewards for hard work is pretty terrible as it is right now. I can see why people so easily resort to running/farming.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustache Mayhem

I'll admit the speed clears using bu are pretty easy.. but look these guys spending 12-16k a run to clean fendi's, bu on 3 levels.. and though they are bound to the wiki letter for letter- it's still equates to fun for them.. you want to take that away and what are they going to do then? you want the community to die off even more?

People found the Signet of Ghostly Might to be really fun when it killed anyone and anything after 10 seconds as well.

What the f*ck are you talking about again?

lishi · Dec 13, 2009, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emz

I really do like some of the opinions posted by Kaleban. If they want to fix the games balance then more is going to be needed then denying a few classes of some of their skills. That is a huge "band-aid fix" in comparison to the idea of giving rewards based on action. Yes his example was simplistic but the system could be refined to work quite nicely.

I've only had this game what ... 3 months or so? And SF really doesn't affect me in a negative way or a positive way. In fact, the only time I have seen it is when a friend I have known a year or so off of GW ran me to Droknar's. If I choose to try and farm (and fail) as a monk or a sin I go for it. I do prefer to do storylines to campaigns though on new chars.

Surely if you don't wish to use the skill and you want to spend hours running a dungeon with friends/guildies then that is your choice? Sometimes newer players do need a quick buck and some people enjoy speed clearing over grinding.

The quality of rewards for hard work is pretty terrible as it is right now. I can see why people so easily resort to running/farming.

There is a lot of reason why what you say is not valid, but do it have any point?

Anet said we gonna fix this, and i don't think this mean we gonna let the SF thing keep going

UnChosen · Dec 13, 2009, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's so horrendously uninspired that I can't even call it a "band-aid fix".

Its actually pretty well inspired. He just worded it rather simplistically. Rewarding "balanced" play with more reward is far better than punishing gimmicks.

No matter how many gimmick they nerf there will always be ONE area + ONE build that is the most effective. With nearly every area of the game having crap stuff for people doing "balanced", it just encourage nearly all the players to pile onto that one area and one build. Meanwhile, players like me end up getting screwed over with a completely empty game other than that one area.

Of course, there will always be an extremely small minority that doesn't care whether the game dies out or not. The few "pro" guild that are completely out of view and only comes out to cheerleed for a build nerf before they hide back to their little circle and wait for the next gimmick....=.=

Kaleban · Dec 13, 2009, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's so horrendously uninspired that I can't even call it a "band-aid fix".

Nerfing a skill because people complain is a band aid fix. Changing the gameplay so that people aren't tempted to use gimmick builds is fixing the source of the issue.

I just had to word it simplistically so people like you could understand it. Perhaps instead of praising the idea of segregation and exclusion, the SF haters could do something constructive and suggest solutions that won't basically remove an entire profession from group play again? Of course, that's expecting a quite a bit from you lot.

In the end equation, I fully expect ANet to do the wrong thing, and give in to the crybabies who want their Wammos, Eles and Monks to rule again as they always have. Its not like ANet has a history of doing the simple, elegant things, and instead find stupid solutions that either exacerbate the problem or introduce brand new ones.

Bryant Again · Dec 13, 2009, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Nerfing a skill because people complain is a band aid fix. Changing the gameplay so that people aren't tempted to use gimmick builds is fixing the source of the issue.

Precisely, and many would rather see that change happen with making balanced team builds once again viable. There are many other methods to encourage more balanced party play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Perhaps instead of praising the idea of segregation and exclusion, the SF haters could do something constructive and suggest solutions that won't basically remove an entire profession from group play again? Of course, that's expecting a quite a bit from you lot.

I've suggested numerous changes, but a lot of them are on a huge scale. That's just because Guild Wars PvE is just in such a huge, massive mess.

In the past - and if you ever read this Improval, I've seen the light - I used to advocate that higher dmg = higher difficulty. While it can be something for those that want an insane and crazy mode of play, there's potential for much more challenging encounters with a much better AI and more balanced (team build wise) enemy encounters.

While I do consider what's essentially "invincibility" do be a bit of an iffy skill idea, a lot of the blame resides in the fact that enemies will still throw *everything* they have at you while you still have SF. If enemies actually saw how much of a non-threat farming builds were then none of this would be an issue. If those trolls in the Troll Cave actually realized that nothing they did could kill that 55 and instead kited farming would've died out as soon as it began.

So what I advocate for is:
-Less thoughtless implementation for attempting to increase difficulty: high damage and HP alone just doesn't cut it.
-More adaptable AI: Probably be hard as hell to do, sadly, but it has massive pay-off.
-More balanced enemy builds: running into a mob of 8 baddies that are all the same class and all the same build is rarely fun or gratifying.
And to top things off:
-More difficulty settings: An additional setting that makes the game easier wouldn't be a bad idea, since it would allow those who are inexperienced to see the endgame and challenging areas without wiping on the first mob. Rewards while in this mode would have to be decreased, obviously.

A decrease in power to PvE skills and consets would also be a pretty tasty idea.

And Unchosen makes a great point that the pay-off of many of the rewards you can get in the game are pretty crap. One can state that it shouldn't be much of a problem since everything is based off of just looking different, but still.

Mainly, it's not Shadow Form itself that's really a problem. It's what we go up against that's broken. The problem is ANet is very, very unlikely to make such broad and massive changes to their game, hence why I see a nerf to the skill itself incredibly likely, and also why I don't really care if it's nerfed or not.

And sorry if my first reply to you was a bit harsh. Long weekend at the job...

Kaleban · Dec 13, 2009, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Precisely, and many would rather see that change happen with making balanced team builds once again viable. There are many other methods to encourage more balanced party play.

What happens to the Assassin class post SF nerf?

Quote:

And sorry if my first reply to you was a bit harsh. Long weekend at the job...

Lol, no worries.

Ugh · Dec 13, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I just had to word it simplistically so people like you could understand it. Perhaps instead of praising the idea of segregation and exclusion, the SF haters could do something constructive and suggest solutions that won't basically remove an entire profession from group play again?

Plan A:
1. Nerf SF
2. Buff other sin skills

Those are the basics. Of course I could go into more detail, but I had to word it simplistically so people like you could understand it.

And, only sins would become "excluded" by a nerf of SF (that's only if Anet decides not to buff any other sin skills. And if they don't, it will still just put sins on par with professions like rangers, mesmers, and dervishes). Currently, as many as 7/10 professions are excluded in any given SC. If anything, an SF nerf would promote variety.

Bryant Again · Dec 13, 2009, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

What happens to the Assassin class post SF nerf?

Assassins will be fine, just like Dervishes and Rits. The biggest problem they have is the PUG mentality that they are supposedly "useless". For the Assassin's in particular this can be blamed largely for what happened with Factions: the Afflicted are possibly the biggest enemies of Sins, and easily the cause for most of their deaths. It was an *awful* idea to design a less durable class against hordes of bad guys that do annoying damage on death.

Barrage · Dec 13, 2009, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Plan A:
1. Nerf SF
2. Buff other sin skills.

This should be the plan they run with, but they can't be almost useless buffs like Golden Phoenix Strike, the skill is still fairly lacking.

All sins currently need in PvE is unblockable Death Blossom + Moebius Strike , if they make a PvE / PvP split like this, the sin will be perfect in PvE.

lishi · Dec 13, 2009, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

What happens to the Assassin class post SF nerf?

Lol, no worries.

Anet will probably buff something else, so it all depend from what they buff and what one made the assassin for.

Farmer&soloer or he actually wanted to play the class.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

This should be the plan they run with, but they can't be almost useless buffs like Golden Phoenix Strike, the skill is still fairly lacking.

All sins currently need in PvE is unblockable Death Blossom + Moebius Strike , if they make a PvE / PvP split like this, the sin will be perfect in PvE.

A lot of assassin skills could be tweaked to make assassins more than just DB spammers.

I mean, Siphon Strength for example, is fairly great in PvP because players do under 300 damage per hit. Not so much in PvE. It could easily be changed to like...an AoE weakness-like hex without breaking THAT much (Enfeebling Blood...which isn't elite).

Expose Defenses could cause allies to deal additional physical damage, in addition to your unblockable attacks (similar to Barbs).

Enduring Toxin could spread to nearby enemies upon death.

Mantis Touch...god...needs a lot of work. A start would be making it do some unconditional damage...like 20...60...75 or something.

Honestly, you can take any terrible skill in the game and make it enticing. As for making PuGs want to take you...well...Paragons are STILL shunned by a lot of PuGs, even though imbagon is ridiculously overpowered.

Barrage · Dec 13, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

A lot of assassin skills could be tweaked to make assassins more than just DB spammers.

Well, to me it seems that whatever buffs they do end up doing, the DB spammer will still be the best assassin build, it has a lot of variations, but the core principal will stay. So why not give it some love?

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

Well, to me it seems that whatever buffs they do end up doing, the DB spammer will still be the best assassin build, it has a lot of variations, but the core principal will stay. So why not give it some love?

Well, I guess that's starting to go into the "There should be more than one effective build". I mean, granted, a naked monk with no skills on his bar is "effective" for easy mode PvE....but classes shouldn't be a 1-trick pony. Don't get me wrong, 1-trick ponies are definitely better than a trickless pony, but they should have options. Necromancer for example...there's dozens of builds to run, all of which are pretty damn effective. Hell, even Dervish have various builds, and some skills to add onto their skillbars in certain situations.

Barrage · Dec 13, 2009, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Well, I guess that's starting to go into the "There should be more than one effective build". I mean, granted, a naked monk with no skills on his bar is "effective" for easy mode PvE....but classes shouldn't be a 1-trick pony. Don't get me wrong, 1-trick ponies are definitely better than a trickless pony, but they should have options. Necromancer for example...there's dozens of builds to run, all of which are pretty damn effective. Hell, even Dervish have various builds, and some skills to add onto their skillbars in certain situations.

The problem is, with most of the assassin's skills, they try to hard to act like single target attackers. Siphon Strength, Palm Strike, etc. But this seems to make it a slightly tweaked form of a warrior with a faster but less damaging weapon, and less armor. I think anet just does not know what to do with the sins other that SF in PvE. I mean look, some skills OBVIOUSLY need a PvE / PvP split, like Beguiling Haze, Dark Apostasy, Hidden Caltrops, etc, so that they are actually wroth their skill slot.

Steps_Descending · Dec 13, 2009, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

All sins currently need in PvE is unblockable Death Blossom + Moebius Strike , if they make a PvE / PvP split like this, the sin will be perfect in PvE.

Actually, it's already there in elite and non-elite form : GFoxstrike + foxfang + DB
Only DB is unblockable, and it's on a 4 sec cooldown. Add serpent's swiftness (or any cooldown reducer) and you have a 3 sec cooldown 3 attack chain. All non-elite.

Fox's Promise makes everythign unblockable, but takes your elite. 3 sec chains should be easy to find. (JS+FF+DB).

The choices comes down to : a) use your elite b) use your secoundary and stance c) look a bit deeper and find a better one

Barrage · Dec 13, 2009, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Actually, it's already there in elite and non-elite form : GFoxstrike + foxfang + DB
Only DB is unblockable, and it's on a 4 sec cooldown. Add serpent's swiftness (or any cooldown reducer) and you have a 3 sec cooldown 3 attack chain. All non-elite.

Fox's Promise makes everythign unblockable, but takes your elite. 3 sec chains should be easy to find. (JS+FF+DB).

The choices comes down to : a) use your elite b) use your secoundary and stance c) look a bit deeper and find a better one

Sins having to recast their enchantments mid-battle just to output a decent amount of damage is just pointless. and Fox's Promise can not be relied on because blind is just as plentiful as block in HM.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

The problem is, with most of the assassin's skills, they try to hard to act like single target attackers. Siphon Strength, Palm Strike, etc. But this seems to make it a slightly tweaked form of a warrior with a faster but less damaging weapon, and less armor. I think anet just does not know what to do with the sins other that SF in PvE. I mean look, some skills OBVIOUSLY need a PvE / PvP split, like Beguiling Haze, Dark Apostasy, Hidden Caltrops, etc, so that they are actually wroth their skill slot.

To be honest, I quite like Beguiling Haze on my assassin. Of course it doesn't output the pure DPS that DB spam does, but completely shutting down a caster for 12 seconds in HM isn't that bad. Plus the high Shadow Arts requirement lets me take fun stuff like Blinding Powder, which is decent to shutdown groups of physical.

I prefer utility builds...which is why I love Paragon, and did so since way before the imbagon. But don't get me wrong, it could likely do with a sligh buff.

As for the direction of the assassin, I have always thought they should have more utility in PvE. Deadly Arts be offensive GROUP utility, Shadow Arts being defensive GROUP utility (though it does already have some...). My assassin was my main for the entire duration between factions and NF, and was the first to finish NF...but then my Paragon took over. Assassin just seems like so much lost potential.